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Behringer Ada8000 vs high end stuff?

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Sheever Newbie

Sheever

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The Behringer ADA8000 is a very economical option for an 8-channel A/D and D/A converter expansion, complete with preamps & ADAT i/o. It is based on Wavefront Semiconductor's AL1101 and AL1201 and/or Cirrus Logic 4270's converters, all which have quite decent harmonic & musical sound quality. The biggest drawback within the ADA8000's analog path would be from the use of the Texas Instruments' TL074 opamp, which is primarily responsible for the unit's hazy and muddy characteristic. But the good news is that we've come up with an amazing solution to bring this very inexpensive converter into a COMPLETELY different league!

There are two different modifications available for the Behringer ADA8000:

The ADA8000 Basic Modification is strictly an analog stage modification in which we replace the stock op-amps with much faster, high grade op-amps. This results in a sound that is strikingly more open and textured, with far greater detail and micro-dynamics. The common response we receive regarding this mod is that it has the sonic effect of taking a blanket off of the speakers, which is a pretty dramatic effect for just $255!

Now, we have been modifying the ADA8000 for a few years now (only upon customers' requests), but it wasn't until we recently had the opportunity to actually shoot it out against a stock Apogee Ensemble that we decided on making this mod public and officially adding it to our website. After we compared the two units together, we were astonished that our basic op-amp upgrade so easily brought the ADA8000 to comparable sound quality as the two-thousand dollar Ensemble!

The ADA8000 Premium Modification,* priced at only $450, will take you completely out of the Ensemble ballpark altogether. For this modification we not only perform the op-amp upgrade, but we replace vital analog signal caps with capacitors of dramatically higher quality, and we use premium audio electrolytics on both inputs and outputs. We also perform converter decoupling using the same techniques found in our Alesis AI-3 Premium upgrade, our acclaimed Signature Series modifications, and in our widely-praised FM192. After this upgrade, the ADA8000 will have a much wider stereo field, a smoother & more defined bass, and sweeter-sounding highs. We are certain that this upgrade will easily bring you into the range of the Apogee Rosetta series, if not surpass it altogether.

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Sheever Newbie

Sheever

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erdemes vegigolvasni,szenzacios! :)

.tobben csereltek a teszt utan a draga kovertereket az olcsora. :))))

http://www.gearslutz...er-ada8000.html

a leggyengebb velemeny szerint is nagyon kozeli a ketto minosegre,soundra a vakteszt alapjan,es nem kevesen voltak,akik a Behringert hallottak az Auroranak,es meg le is szoltak az utobbit nem tudvan,melyik-melyik :)))

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deneverstudio Enthusiast

deneverstudio

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Az ADA konrétan egy hulladék, bár mondjuk otthoni demozásra teljesen megfelel. Itt van nálam egy a sarokban vésztartaléknak, de természetesen az Apogge-kat használjuk mindenre. Még monitorozni is rossz az ADA, tehát kifelé sem szól jól, nem hogy befelé. Persze kell hozzá egy Genelec, hogy ez egyételmű legyen. Illetve hát ezek nem feltétlenül A-B teszttel eldönthető dolgok, de ezt már sokszor elmondtam. Az emberek nagy részre egy sáv esetén nem fogja meghallani a különbséget. Egy többsávos dobfelvételnél már talán, de még az is elég kevés. Fel kell venni egy 40-50 sávos élő anyagot mindkettővel, be EQ-zni, stb, és akkor teljesen egyértelmű lesz, hogy mi van. Apogee órajellel ugyan javul kicsit a dolog, de persze nem történik csoda.

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Sheever Newbie

Sheever

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jo ez a post:

I just came across this thread and wanted to weigh in with my own experiences as a Design Engineer. I have 25+ years of experience with analog/digital circuit design........my career up to the mid 90's was mainly focused on analog audio/video and signal transmission. I transitioned over to Computer/IT Engineering during the 90's boom years where I still am up to the present.

Consider the following:

From WWII up to the early 1990's, analog systems, electronics, circuits, and products experienced consistent and predictable improvements in performance, quality, lower cost, consistency, etc. Many of these advances were made possible because of improved materials, methods, computer modeling, etc. Low noise, extended frequency response, consistent performance, and continuing new features defined analog technology up to the early 90's....especially audio products.

The interesting thing to understand about analog electronics is that designing analog circuits is every bit the art form that is painting, playing a musical instrument, or being a master Chef.....being good at designing analog circuits is a skill based on LOTS of experience just like any other art form. And just like any other form of art, a "Master" is worth more than someone who is not.....ie a Master Chef is a demonstrably better cook (and makes more $$$) than the guy who slings hash at the local diner.

Analog systems by their very definition are natural because nature is itself inherently analog. Weather, water, wind, geology, chemical interaction/reaction, nuclear physics, gravity, etc.....all inherently natural systems based on laws of nature which are inextricably tied to analog principles.

The point I am trying to make in relation to audio technology is that up to the mid 90's, a state-of-the-art music recording studio was based on analog technology. The costs associated with designing and building an analog recording studio is astronomically high based on the aforementioned reasoning.....a Studer A-827 2-inch 24-track tape machine is pure analog art, so is a Neve, SSL, Harrison analog mixing console. These products cost $200K+ because of the immense amounts of expensive R&D and artistry that went into their design. Circuit Engineers that work on products of this caliber make significant $$$ salaries.

Obviously, these types of products and recording performance were WAY beyond the affordability of most people except for rock stars, studios, and big business.....there were a lot of lower cost recording products to be sure, but, nobody back in the day EVER mistook a track recorded on a SSL-4000G/Studer/Ampex/MCI/Otari with something recorded on a Tascam M-520/Fostex reel to reel. There were clear lines between analog products of different classes and everyone understood where the lines were.

With the digital recording boom beginning in the early-mid 90's, audio recording manufacturers saw a way to provide high-performance recording products to a wide cross section of consumers at lower costs......AND MAKE HUGE PROFIT MARGINS. Profit margins are what it is all about in the end. The business model of selling maybe 50 $100K 2-inch analog machines vs selling 20,000 ADATS.....no comparison. A lot of companies saw digital technology as an endless gold mine....it was for a while....but in the end they were/are wrong and Behringer products are a good example of why they are wrong.

The Behringer ADA-8000 is a simple little box consisting of a torodial transformer powering a standard design linear PS connected to a simple circuit card consisting of a Wavefront AL1401AG/AL1402G 8-ch ADAT transceiver pair front-ending Wavefront AL1101G/AL1201G AD/DA converters. Add a TL074C op-amp in the analog outputs + 8 off-the-shelf design mic pre's and you have what amounts to be a simple, cost effective and good sounding digital audio converter.

Regardless of what Behringer may have done in the past, the idea that they ripped off such a simple and easy to implement design is non-sense. Looking at the reference design docs athttp://www.wavefrontsemi.com/UserFil...ta%20Sheet.pdf , it is apparent that the good sound (I have 8 of them) of the ADA8000 is mainly due to the fact that the Wavefront chips are highly integrated, require no complex clocking circuits(low jitter), and are designed to work together without requiring extensive skills in digital circuit design and topology layout. It is this concept at which I arrive at the point of this post.

Digital audio development is at a point of maturity where the business drivers to increase product sales comes mainly from the marketing department AND NOT the Engineering department. There is minimal artistry at the product development level in making modern digital audio products. Everything is based on "cookbook" circuit recipes and off the shelf sub-assemblies. There are software tools that automate almost all of the design process. Product companies all use the same design software. There is digital magic and artistry going on at companies like TI/Burr-Brown, Analog Devices, AKM, etc., but, the silicon that they innovate is the same silicon that Behringer, RME, DigiDesign, Lavry, and everyone else uses. The more consistent the chip companies make their silicon, the fewer differences between products there are, and the more dependent the product companies become on marketing hype and spin vs real technical differentiation.

The funny part of all this is that their "get rich quick" digital visions of the 90's barely lasted 10 years. Their profit margins are evaporating because they have no real advantage over competing products, and in any sort or honest comparison, well.....this thread is a good example.

I have personal experience that shows 95% of audio production people and musicians cannot tell the difference between so-called high-end digital products and "regular" digital products using standard double-blind comparison methodology.

I have a rack of 8 Apogee AD-8000's that were all damaged due to a ruptured pipe leak at a local studio. The owner gave them to me free as they were worthless to him. I decided to have a bit of fun with them, so my 2008 winter project was to strip out the damaged Apogee circuit boards and replace them with Behringer ADA-8000 guts. I built my own led driver boards to run the front panel meters and indicators using standard driver ic's & schematics available anywhere on the internet. I even built a led flashing circuit that flashes the clock led's in sync across all 8 units. (They are clocked with a real Apogee Big-Ben). The back panels are a bit rough, but I've only got about $1000 invested in all 8 of them. The first thing people comment on when they see my control room is that big purple rack of Apogee AD-8000's....and they do look cool with all those led meters bouncing and lights flashing.....and they sound GOOD not because they are Apogee or look like an Apogee product, but, because the Behringer design is simple and works well. I had a guy bring in a couple of Motu HD-192's for a session last week and he was conviced the "Apogee's just sound more fluid, smooth, and detailed" and that he was going to sell the Motu's......until I told them they were Behringer's.......he would not believe me until I opened one up to prove it.

So my point of this rambling reply is to buy what sounds good. If that happens to save you a lot of money, fine....put the difference into better acoustics, mics, outboard gear....you know, analog stuff.....your recordings will sound a LOT better and the people that listen to your CD could care less that you did not use a Pacific Microsonics DA converter during mastering.

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Hobkins Collaborator

Hobkins

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azert az mindenkepp beszaras,hogy a nagytobbseg az Adat hallotta jobban az Aurora elleneben.

na mindegy,sokba nem kerul,gondoltam megnezem magam,kivancsi vagyok mi lesz az eredmeny a Hdsp 9652 vel hajtva

Szia!

Ha megvetted, írd le légy szíves, hogy mik a tapasztalataid.Engem is érdekelne a dolog az EMU 1820m mellé. Nem lenne hülyeség megcsinálni a modolást sem, ha tudná az ember, pontosan mit kell.

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madhead Newbie

madhead

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Ugye csak vicceltek így karácsony környékén? Bocs, de nem tudom kihagyni ezt a kört.

1) A Lynx nem high-end.

2) Megnéztétek egyáltalán a belinkelt Wavefront konverter adatlapját? (ameddig csak ADAT-ról kell I2S-re alakítani hangot nincs probléma, de a többit ne... dinamika 107dB? :D )

3) Bármilyen összehasonlításkor legalább egy "normális" konverternek illik lenni. Apogee X-Series vagy Prism ADA. Ezek legalább referenciák. Ja, hogy a clock többe kerül anyagárban mint a Behringer konverter? Persze.

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Sheever Newbie

Sheever

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u.i.: DAC szinten PCM1794 alatt már nem hiszek, joggal...

bocs hogy nem a Prismrol indulunk..en kerek elnezest.persze a Lynx is csak fos kategoria...ugye nem kezdjuk azt hogy a dinamika mennyire donto meg nem?

pls neeee.

az RME kartyak ugy is jok tudnak maradni,hogy nem 123 dbje van,egy normalis clock sokkal fontosabb.na mindegy kinek megint mi a fontos..leszarom ezt a nagy high end hypeolast,meghagyom masoknak.

peace:)

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feckamusic Newbie

feckamusic

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Demózásra kisebb együttesnek biztos tökéletes!

RME ADAT kártya és ebből 3 darab már 24 sáv amivel simán feltudják venni a művet. Ha meg tényleg ilyen jó ahogy itt lehet olvasni akkor kisebb koncertfelvételre tökéletes. Nem kell drága cuccot kivinni amit kitesz az ember az időjárás ártalmának elég ebből pár darab :)

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Sheever Newbie

Sheever

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megjott,beuzemeltem,hat jobb mint amit vartam Behringertol.

meglepoen csendes ...felallasban mar teljesen jo jele van,egyaltalan nem szol rosszul elso benyomasra,bar csak a CS Yamahat kuldtem at rajta egyenlore.

holnap mikrofon preamp csekk lesz,de az arahoz kepest sztem teljesen jo.

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